Blog Debate: Is the Word of God literal, spiritual, or both?

I’ve had numerous blog debates. This is one I had in April 2008. I believe it can serve to edify the Body. I’ll be posting other blog debates later on. They are long, but they are worth the read.

Michelle: The stories [in the Bible] are not literal, but symbolic. They have complete Spiritual meaning. We know this is true when we apply the spiritual meaning to our lives - Not the literal. The literal would be silly... I myself can not ‘hear’ the literal any longer...

Me: “The stories are not literal, but symbolic”, by what means? Are you familiar with the historical educational and generational system of the Jews? Because if you were, you would be aware of how and what they took literal and symbolic by way of they’re writing. From Genesis to Esther are considered by Jews as historical (with respect to the Torah). They take the accounts recorded within these books as literal, not symbolic. The Poetic, Wisdom, and Prophetic books contain historical and symbolic language. These you can argue about what to take literal or not, but the first 17 books are considered by the people who God used to present the Bible to us as historical not symbolic. They know better than us of what’s written in it is literal and symbolic. Ask any Jewish rabbi about the Garden of Eden, the Genesis account of Creation and so on, I guarantee you they say it is literal not symbolic.

And what’s so “not so” about a snake talking? In the story of Balaam the donkey spoke. I guess you’ll question that story’s reality as well huh? What about the burning bush, not literal? Mount Sinai, not literal? The Passover, not literal? Jesus in the wilderness with Satan, not literal? The Resurrection, not literal? Pentecost, not literal? His second coming, not literal?

“As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established IN THE FAITH, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. BEWARE lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.” (Col. 2:6-8)
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IF I based my reverence for God/Jesus Christ on any speck of His professed believers, then I wouldn’t believe in Him either (like those who don’t for this exact reason), because His people do a horrible job of representing Him. We’re all over the board when it comes to explaining Him and His Word. No wonder they think we’re simple or gullible, we can’t even come together on one Book.

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Michelle: I agree there is a very real Jewish history, and Moses account of history. However, the problem is that Christians take the whole bible literal - Heaven, Hell, the fire, Satan, streets of gold, etc. The truths of the Kingdom are hidden in the literal things all around us (trees, relationships, look at all Jesus parables - not litereral, symbolic!). Trees are literal, yet Jesus uses them for our understanding of a deeper truth - This is my point!!!

In what God has shown me TODAY, the Spiritual meaning applies individual for my understanding of how awesome He is... Yes, I believe much of the bible has a literal history, but how does that change me from the inside (the letter?), No, it is the Spirit that gives life!!!

Gods creation is so amazing that whats around us has Spiritual meaning (the changing life, seasons, times, etc.) - The question is do we have Spiritual eyes and ears or carnal?

Me: Hey, I get what you are saying and have no problem with what you stated, but... “the problem is that Christians take the whole bible literal - Heaven, Hell, the fire, Satan, streets of gold, etc.”

How can you not take the existence of Satan (i.e. the Devil, Lucifer, etc.) literally? Again, do you deny Jesus’ wilderness experience with Satan? What about when Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven (Lk. 10:18)? Right there He takes care of Satan and heaven as literal. How do you explain not taking that literal?

Now whether Hell is really called hell with fire and brimstone or whatever is not worth going back and forth over. But by saying it’s a problem taking Hell (i.e. “the place where the eternal separation from God is served”) literal, you just rejected a number of passages within the Bible that clearly affirms this. How do you explain not taking that literal?

Streets of gold and such, that’s no big deal if some take it literal and others not. But to say it’s a problem taking Heaven (i.e. the promised New Heaven; also the paradise of being in a place with the presence of the Almighty for eternity) literal, again is rejecting a number of passages within the Bible that clearly affirms this. Even Jesus Himself affirms this (Jn. 14:3). How do you explain not taking that literal?

Yes we should be mindful of the literal and the symbolic. Yes we should know what scriptures fall in what category. YET, we should not water down one just to further emphasize the other. That was the problem with the second and third century Church. Paganism crept in and tried to emphasize on the symbolic and ignore (even deny) the scriptures that were literal. What happened as a result of that was “sacramentalism” and a host of other junk that sent the Church into a serious sick symbolic state for 1300 years, right up ‘til the Reformation.

Be careful not to over spiritualize the Bible, just as one needs to be careful not to over literalize the Bible. There are times, places, and things to take literal, and there are times, places, and things to take it symbolic. We have to be very careful teetering on that line and not make what is absolute as relative, and what’s relative as absolute.

Oh and it takes “Spiritual eyes and ears” to be able to receive what is literal, as literal (1Cor. 2:1-5, 13-14).

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Michelle: Just two little things, How can I overspiritualize God, He is Spirit! God has shown me the Spirit gives life, not knowledge! Carnal mind is the enmity...

And I do not ignore scriptures when I study a topic or the bible, I just read them with different glasses now....

It may come to surprize that I do not find it required to read and study the bible to find God - His word is not letters on a paper, but His Word is Chirst in me, and ears to hear His Word for me personally,

God Bless

Me: I didn’t say over spiritualize God, I said don’t over spiritualize the Bible.

Yes the Spirit gives life, but what life is that? Is it not the life that our eyes, ears, hearts, and minds have been opened? Did not Jesus say that eternal life is that they (that would be us) may *know* the Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent (Jn. 17:2-3)? God even said my people perish for the lack of *knowledge* (Hos. 3:6). The knowledge God desires is knowing Him. This is not a bad or carnal thing, it is what God wants from us (Hos. 6:6).

“Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
**But let him who glories glory in this,
That he understands and knows Me,**
That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
**For in these I delight**,” says the LORD.” (Jer. 9:23-24)


I agree with your last statement. His word is more than simply words, they are words of Life and words of Truth! Without His word, how would we have known Truth or Life?

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Michelle: We need to have our own testimony of God and Know Him (not just words on paper), I agree!!! This knowledge comes from our own personal experience and testimonies, not others. (not even those who wrote the bible). To know God is to know love and to deny self absorbant ways. To me God has made this wisdom much easier then the bible scholars have through His Holy Spirit and Word in me. The change is inward, not outward - thats about all in a nutshell, at least the way I have come to know God.

Me: Yeah, we just have to be careful not to water down or give little weight to the Word of God. If the Bible was removed from the planet, a whole lot more of professing believers would fall sway to the ways, ideas, philosophies, and teachings of the world and/or false teachers. It’s bad enough a whole lot are already falling sway now with the Bible available, and that’s because they water it down and/or don’t take it seriously.

The Bible is our guideline/boundary, kind of like the lane dividers on the street that keep us in our respected lanes for our safety. If the lines begin to blur, vanish, or people just stop regarding them, how much more chaos and disorder would our streets be filled with? And how safe would we truly be on the road? That’s how life would be without the Word of God, or even a failed respect for the Bible- ex. what we see today.

Yes there is a personal responsibility to our testimony, but the Bible also plays a part in our development and relationship with God. Again, we wouldn’t truly know who we are believing in if it were not for the Bible. God has presented and preserved the Bible for us for a reason much greater than it just being words on paper.

4/2008

Let's talk about... "TRUTH"

Here's a piece I wrote in response to a blog I was reading and discussing on myspace in like '07. Just wanted to share it. Thought it was a good read.

So, let's talk about truth shall we...
1. Truth is something that cannot be “concretely” denied. That’s what makes it TRUTH.
2. Truth is something that has or can be proven to be true. Otherwise, if it cannot be proven to be TRUTH, then it is subjectable to being denied (ex. theories).
3. Truth can be a person’s perception. One cannot tell me that what I perceived was not true, because it is what “I” perceived; therefore it now becomes “my truth”, whether you believe it or not. Now does this mean that what “I” perceive to be true is right, no. It is simply “my” truth, and not “the” TRUTH. For example, you can say you do not believe there is a such thing as an outer space. “You” hold this to be “the truth”. However, before scientist were able to look into “outer space” to prove that there is an actual “outer space”, all one would have to do (if they were not blind) is look up in the sky and see there are things (which we came to know as stars, the sun, and the moon) beyond our earth, thus proving there is a “space” out of our realm of earth––“outer space”. This would then make what “you” believe to be truth simply “yours” and not “the” actual TRUTH. It is on the “my truth’s” where we as people become divided.

     If “the” TRUTH cannot be concretely denied, can it then be proven to be undeniably true? Can there be concrete evidence to prove that this (whatever it is) is the TRUTH? Emphatically yes! TRUTH is a reality––something that is and can be known, even with our limited knowledge on certain things. Again, outer space is a perfect example. Only a fool can and would deny the existence of “outer space”, but no one can or ever will be able to offer a shred of concrete evidence to deny “the” TRUTH of an outer space. It is a reality. The “my truths” are individualistic and subjective. The TRUTH is absolute. It is true regardless of opinions or perceptions. The question that should be asked is, what do you do when “the” TRUTH is presented and proven to be true?
     TRUTH is a reality, period. Those who deny its reality, actually affirm its reality. Someone once told me, “…no matter what is told to a person or even “proven” to being true, that individual can and will accept whatever they care to as “the” truth.” Here’s my response, a person's perception is not “the” TRUTH but simply “their” truth.
     Where the problem or contention enters is when “the” TRUTH doesn’t fit with a person or persons “my truths”; which in turns leads them on a quest to deny the specific truth that has been presented. But if that which has been presented is “the” TRUTH, they will not be able to concretely deny it. Thus they just come up with theories and their pot of so-called “reasonable doubt” to mislead those who are already looking for a scapegoat not to believe “the” TRUTH, or mislead the gullible, non-researching folk.

     A wise man from Tarsus once wrote, “Since they refuse to trust truth, they’re banished to their chosen world of lies and illusions.” This is the end result of those individuals that can and will accept whatever they care to as “the” truth.
     The greatest commandment says to love the LORD God not just with our heart, strength, and soul, but also with our mind! Go educate yourself with the things, history, and people of God or you will find yourself being––whether you want to or not––educated with the things, history, and people of this world.

2007

Evidences of True Forgiveness

I had a trial over the weekend. So, I grabbed my resources (Bible, certain Christian books that touch on what I was going through, and my spiritual journal), took a ride and talked to Jesus about what I was going through and how to deal with it. At the end of my time with Jesus I asked Him about forgiveness. I said, “Am I truly forgiving a person if I just say I forgive them, or are there signs that accompany true forgiveness?” He responded with bringing some Bible verses to my mind and then dropped into my spirit how He forgives us. From this, I came to understand what biblical forgiveness/true forgiveness really is.

Biblical forgiveness/True forgiveness means:

1. not holding the fault/offense of the person to them (Ps. 103:10, 12) 
2. not having any animosity (ill will, hatred, resentment, hostility) toward the person still (Rom. 5:8-11) 
3. being able to leave the fault/offense right where it is (the past) and move on (Rom. 6:5-6ff)

These three are based off of how Jesus forgives us. 

1. When Jesus forgives us He no longer holds our sins against Him to us. The Bible says, “He doesn’t treat us as our sins deserve, nor pay us back in full for our wrongs… And as far as sunrise is from sunset, he has separated us from our sins.” (Ps. 103:10-12, MSG). 
2. When Jesus forgives us He doesn’t have any animosity toward us. The Bible says, “But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son. So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.” (Rom. 5:8-11, NLT). 
3. When Jesus forgives us He leaves our sins right where they are, with our old man, and He moves on to our new man. The Bible says, “If we shared in Jesus’ death by being baptized, we will be raised to life with him. We know that the persons we used to be were nailed to the cross with Jesus. This was done, so that our sinful bodies would no longer be the slaves of sin.” (Rom. 6:5-6, CEV).

Jesus confirmed in a parable that we are to forgive just as we have been forgiven, “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’” (Matt. 18:32-33, NIV). Thus, if our forgiveness of a person does not possess the three characteristics of how Jesus forgave us, then we have not completely forgiven that person and we need to be honest about it so to do something about it.

Hopefully what I learned during my trial has been helpful to you.

6/2009

The People Problem

“People are the world's biggest problem”, one writer put it. And she is absolutely right. One of the main dilemmas with people is we're born pathological liars and pure idiots. To be blunt, we as people are stupid. Even the smartest, most creative, well spoken humans are stupid. Not stupid intellectually speaking, but stupid in regards to common sense and consequence.
       We see from the first people of our human history––Adam and Eve––that we as a species are devoid common sense and perceiving consequences. Yeah, yeah, we can build, formulate, amaze each other, and so on. But when it comes to understanding the seriousness of our own choices, and thinking something all the way through before we do it, we suck. We are impulse driven people, reactional beings. More than not, we respond without thinking (i.e. without rationalizing the consequences of our own choices) on what we're getting ready to do. And because of that, we find ourselves in a bigger and smellier mess than we imagined. Or, we deceive our own selves into believing that we had nothing to do with it and it's all the other persons fault (e.g. Gen.3:9-12).
     It's sad to know that people, when confronted with an issue (whatever that may be), can't stand back and say, “Here's my fault in it”; and then with that admission in mind, proceed forward with the matter. Regardless if justice is served, (bearing in mind that the same fallible people are the ones making the judgments), the fact that each party involved admitted beforehand to their part in it will make some kind of difference––at least to a mature individual. Even so, any kind of positive difference is a good thing; for our audience reaches beyond a two person capacity.
       The younger generation observes everything. How we handle our choices in the midst of situations displays to the youth a pattern to follow or not to follow. Yet the same problem lies with the youth as with the older generation, they are also devoid common sense and perceiving consequences. Thus, they don't always learn from our mistakes. This then means we as parents, teachers, older family members, and so on, need to first learn how to better handle our part in situations and then show the younger people how to do the same. Otherwise, the dysfunctional method in which we handle situations will be absorbed and continued by them.

Understanding How To Get A Better Handle
We can learn a valuable understanding about “the people problem” from Newton's law of physics: “For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. In light of Newton's law of physics, every situation involving another person can be seen as an equation (e.g. 1 + 1 = 2). Every person(s) first does something, afterward the other person(s) involved reacts, and then there's the outcome: something good or something not good. The fact that someone outside of oneself is involved indicates this law or equation is present; for there can be no equation if there is only one variable. However, that's only part of the problem. The major part of the problem with this law/equation is it begets a cycle: first an initial action, then a reaction, and then a reaction from person one, and then another reaction from person two, and then another reaction from person one, and so on until someone stops it.
       We've all heard the phrase, "it takes two to tango". Well, as a friend of mine mentioned, it also takes two to argue and two to fight. Many of my marital woes have come out of this law/equation. It wasn't until one of us apologized and admitted our fault that the present tension and misery stopped. Most of life's drama-filled issues will require two or more participants. And I guarantee you those drama-filled issues will (or have) beget that “cycle” and continue to go on until someone stops it. All it takes to stop this brutal cycle is simply admitting ones fault in the matter, apologizing for it, and not playing into it any longer. By removing oneself from the equation means there is only one variable. Only one variable means the equation is incomplete. And an incomplete equation can't give any outcome but incomplete. In this case, unlike what we were taught in school, an incomplete is a good thing.

“Avoiding a fight is a mark of honor; only fools insist on quarreling.” (Prov. 20:3, NLT)

A Biblical Resolution
My wife asked a very good question after she read this. She said how would I, using the Word of God, show the brothers and sisters in the faith how to regulate being “reactional”? The Bible gives a clear-cut prescription on how we as believers are to react/respond to other people in whatever the situation:

1. Think before doing or speaking. (Prov. 15:28; 17:27-28, Jam. 1:19-20, Col. 4:6)
2. Exercise integrity/be honest. (Prov. 3:3-4; 10:9)
3. Be humble. (Prov. 3:5-8; 11:2, 12)
4. Walk in love. (Prov. 10:12; 17:9)

This prescription, if followed, will help us regulate our reactions/responses to other people in a way that Christ is pleased and glorified.
      We have to remember, that even though when we follow this prescription (and it works like everything else the Bible prescribes works), it's neither by our power nor by our might that we are able to regulate our reactions/responses to other people. It is by the Spirit of God that we are able to do all that is pleasing to Christ (Phil. 2:13, Heb. 13:20-21); for how we react/respond to other people matters to Jesus (Matt. 5:16). In these situations we will either shine a good light on our witness for Christ or not. And as ambassadors for Jesus, our aim should always be to glorify Him and bring glory to His name wherever we are and in whatever we do (Col. 3:7, 1Cor. 10:31).

Conclusion
Yes, I made some bold accusations in the beginning of this article. But rightfully so. If we go back to the beginning of time in Genesis we'll see these claims to be true. I guess due to sin being passed down to everyone from Adam, stupidity figured it could hitch a ride as well. Yet, unlike our sinful nature, which will be present until Christ redeems us from the flesh, there is a cure for our stupidity––i.e. lying, foolishness, lack of common sense, not perceiving consequences––and that is...the Word of God. The Word of God is God's wisdom given to mankind (Prov. 2:1-9; 8:22-36, 1Cor. 1:30-31). It is the only cure for all of man's disorders, and in this case, the cure for our part in “the people problem”.
       As a result of this article, I hope you and I both lean on the Holy Spirit to bring this all back to mind the next time we're amid “the people problem”. This way Jesus can be glorified, we can begin to experience a change in how we handle situations, and our witness for Christ not be ruined.

2007

From a son to his father

During the ending of September beginning of October my father was hospitalized. At that time no one knew exactly the extent how bad his sickness was. Maybe a day after being hospitalized he called, and we talked. My father and I don't talk about God. So this was a prime opportunity to share the Gospel with him, and when I did it was more subliminally than directly. When I got off the phone my wife said I should've took that opportunity and really told him how I felt. I said I would pray for boldness for the next time God gives me an opportunity to talk with him like that. Well, the next day he got worse. They quarantined him. I immediately felt burdened. I said, "If something happens to him and I never tell him how much I love him and how much Jesus loves him, I won't be able to forgive myself. I already lost a younger cousin to suicide and had many chances to share Jesus and never did. This time I'm not blowing it." So I went to the computer and wrote a letter. I thought about mailing it, then I sensed the Spirit telling me to call him and read it to him. We had a good talk. And since then, I've noticed little changes in how he wants to be around me and my family more. Praise God for the power of His love.

Just yesterday I was told one of my Bible study brothers lost his father. This made me think. If you have someone in your life that you care about who doesn't know Jesus. Don't wait any longer. Tell them how much you love them and how much Jesus loves them. Time is of the essence!

Here is the letter I wrote. Who knows who else God may use it to bless.
"I love you pops, and I wanted you to know that it is going to hurt me when your time comes to leave this earth. But it's going to hurt evermore to know that I won't see you in heaven because you don't believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and through His death those who believe in Him are forgiven and accepted into God's family forever. I'd rather have you'd be sick and stuff but know the state of your soul and eternity is secure, than to have you well and then one day die and your soul and eternity is doomed. It's on this fact that I am not concerned about grandma's or granddaddy's health and time here, because I know I will see them again in heaven. It's on this fact that I am not concerned about my mother's health and time here, because I know I will see her again in heaven. But I cannot say the same for you, and that sincerely concerns and hurts me. I love you. I want to know that my father has witnessed what Jesus has done in his son's life, the change that Jesus and only Jesus has performed in your son's life, and then in your son's family. You have witnessed this first-hand. It's all because Jesus has saved my soul and has given me access to His power to live a life that pleases, honors, and glorifies Him. And I choose to take hold of His power and live in this way because I want to show Him how grateful I am and how much I love Him for all that He has done for me: saving my soul, delivering me from jail when I was straight-up guilty, delivering me from my many addictions––my sex addiction, drug addiction, control addiction, rage addiction, and so on––restoring my marriage, blessing me with 2 children who shouldn't even have made it out the womb, reconciling my relationship with my mother, and numerous numerous of other things. This is all because of Jesus Christ. I went from being and living one way, to being and living a whole other way.

I know you think all religions and beliefs believe in the same God or point to the same God, but they don't. I have personally researched just about every religion, and each belief has major differences in what they believe, and they all will tell you they don't believe in the same God. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindu's, Ba'ha's, Mystical religions, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Wiccans, Universalist, Buddhist, and the many others, all have fundamental differences. And since we're all different and yet we all claim to be the "TRUTH", we all can't be right. One of these is right which will automatically make the others false. So right there we see that they all don't point to the same God or believe in the same God. What separates Jesus Christ from all of the others is that the "god" the rest claim to believe in have no proof or evidence in their "god" actually being the one true God. But Jesus Christ has strong evidence for Him being the one true God. We have historic evidence that Jesus lived, performed miracles, claimed to be God, died on a cross, rose from the dead, and the people who have truly encountered Jesus haven't been the same since. No other belief has more proof for the guarantee of what they claim, except for Jesus Christ. I am a living witness to the reality of Jesus, grandma and granddaddy are living witnesses to the reality of Jesus, and the many other family members of ours are living witnesses to the reality of Jesus. Jesus Christ is not like the others. He stands alone.

I know you also think people who claim to be Christians are hypocrites. You said you know people who don't believe and live better than some of those who you know who do claim to believe. Well, one, not everyone one who claims to believe in Jesus actually belongs to Jesus. Second, even those who have been truly saved and changed by Jesus are all still human; so we all still make mistakes. None of us are perfect, nor do we claim to be perfect, nor do we try to be perfect. We live like I said before, choosing to take hold of His power and live in a way that shows Him how grateful we are and how much we love Him for all that He has done for us.

I am sharing all of this with you so you won't think believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord is some blind leap with no logic or evidence. Believing in Jesus is just the opposite. There is logic, and most importantly, there is evidence. And the greatest evidence Jesus provides is the truly changed lives of those who truly believe in Him as Lord and Savior. Again, your son pops is a living witness of the truth of Jesus being who He says He is. And as your son, I am asking you to do what I did. Believe that He died to pay your penalty from God for your sins, that He rose to show and prove He has power over death and can give those who believe in Him eternal life after death, and then believe in Him as your personal Lord and Savior. And just like I did and am still doing let Jesus show you how much He loves you, has a better life for you, and will give you His power to change and live for Him. But most of all, He secures your eternal future, pops. No other religion or belief can be certain of their eternal future, only those who believe in Jesus. With Jesus you will no longer have to be concerned with what is going to happen to you when you die, and neither will I or your parents.

I know I probably poured a lot on you. But after Sherman died suddenly, and I had just spoke to him and then he was heavy on my heart later and I never talked to him like I'm talking to you now, it would literally crush me if you died since no one is promised tomorrow and I never told you how much I love you and how much I want you to know that Jesus loves you, gave His life for you, and He wants to be the Savoir of your soul and Lord of your life. Especially in your current condition, I couldn't go another day knowing I have never just straight-up told you that. So I have and now you know where I stand, and I hope you take my concerns seriously and let Jesus into your heart pops. And if you want to know how to do that, let me know. I love you, pops. I'm done."

2008